The Official Politics Thread!!!

[Conniption]

OK I’ve always wanted to do a general politics thread. I’m gonna just put a bunch of stuff out there and anyone can discuss / debate what they want. Or you can just look it over and go back to the thread with Noirs ass in it… *Note* Yes I am a liberal and that will be my slant.


Part 1: The Presidential Primary

First off I just want to say that Hillary should absolutely NOT leave the race despite what everyone is saying. Dontgetmewrong…I like Obama…I like both, really. Policy-wise they are almost identical and they both have major benefits and drawbacks when it comes to defeating McCain. Now…everybody is trying to paint the picture that Obama has this wrapped up but that is simply not true. In the small picture he is ahead by a couple hundred delegates and it will be virtually impossible for Hillary to catch up. In the big picture Obama is ahead by less then %2, a virtual dead heat in political terms plus neither candidate will cross the finish line of the total delegates needed to secure the nomination when all of the states are finished. Also, Hillary is slated to not only win, but kick Obama’s ASS in the next two states (by double digits).*side note* *One of these primaries has already occurred since I started writing this* Obama has even already conceded that point. Actually, Obama supporters should discourage her from leaving right now because it would be very BAD for Obama if she dropped out at this current moment. How bad would it make you look if you lost two states by double-digits by a person who isn’t even campaigning? It would be best for all Democrats if she waited.

The Benefits And Drawbacks Of Hillary

First off the one thing I can say about Hillary and not Barack is that for a very long time she HAS been fighting the good fight. She is the only political figure that has actually attempted to pass a universal health care bill (even though it died). Hillary is also battle-tested, she has already withstood just about the worst attacks the Republican’s can dish out and I have no doubt that she is more then ready to handle anything that McCain can dish. Also, in the greater historical context it would be a MUCH greater achievement to have a woman as president then a black man. Now with my issues. Though they have similar policies in the big picture I have certain issues with some of hers. For one I never liked the fact that Bill allowed NAFTA to pass during his presidency. Even though Hillary openly disagrees with Bill over this policy I still fear that influence…plus people tend to slightly shift politically when they actually reach office. Of course I still have issues with the fact that she voted to authorize the war in Iraq. I understand that Bush flat out lied about WMD’s and a lot of people were fooled into supporting the war from that claim. However…Hillary IS running her campaign on her supposed experience and leadership and that vote, to me, showed a real lack of leadership. Not to mention that a lot of people had to clarity to not be fooled by Bush’s lies and she should have been one of them. Besides all of that I have one more problem…in the 2000 election we saw what was called a “polarization” of the candidates, meaning that the Republican was very conservative and the Democrat was very liberal. Well…if Hillary were to win we would see the opposite…a “centralization” with two (seemingly) middle of the road candidates running against each other. This would not only dissolution voters in general but could spell trouble for Democrats because if both candidates are (seemingly) the same then all that is left is the fear factor.

The Benefits And Drawbacks Of Barack

Let’s face it…Barack has charm. I’ve been following his career since he gave a DAZZLING speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. He can also raise money, which is the second most important factor in winning an election besides public charm. Also…frankly…he is young. My mother once got pissed off at him when he insinuated that we needed to kick the Baby Boomers out of power. I got why she was mad but I couldn’t help to think “well the Baby Boomers DID put the worst President in the history of the U.S. (this will be elaborated on later) into office, maybe that is not such a bad idea” One more note…unlike the TV pundits I don’t believe he will have trouble with white, working class voters once we reach the general election. I believe he has a better chance in solidifying the Democratic base then Hillary. Now with my issues. First off, not much is known about his policies, which could be a good thing or a bad thing. All I really know is that they are similar to Hillary’s but leaning slight left. Also, I am worried that he will not be able to withstand the Conservative attack machine. He had some trouble with the Clinton attack machine and god KNOWS what the Conservatives would come up with in November should Barack win. Hell look what they did to John McCain in 2000…one of THEIR OWN! (For those of you who don’t remember there was a famous smear campaign against McCain in South Carolina where rumors were spread that, amongst other things, he fathered an illegitimate black baby). Of course, those gears have already begun to turn with things like the stupid Jeremiah Wright “scandal,” the fake references to an Islamic past, and, of course, the occasional “accidental” slippage of tongue in calling him “Osama” instead of “Obama.” There is one more thing that I fear… Obama has brought a tremendous amount of hope to people and I worry that expectations have become too high. Government works slow…very slow. Even with Congress in his favor he will be met with constant opposition in all of his endeavors with the express intent of undermining his effectiveness to lower his popularity. Just look at the current Congress for a good example that. When it comes to Obama vs Clinton for him…the ceiling is higher and the floor is lower in all aspects. Against McCain he could either destroy him or crumble. In the White House he could do great things, or fall pretty hard. The real question and concern for me is if people are willing to take the risk.

Why We Should Not Elect McCain

I won’t go very far into this but my own biases aside there are three important reasons why McCain should not be in office. One is that the Supreme Court has slightly shifted to the right with a couple of the left leaning justices on the verge of leaving. So in order to at least maintain a semblance of balance in the Supreme Court (and to ensure things such as Roe v Wade will not be overturned) we need a left leaning President appointing judges. The second is that if we want to even have a CHANCE of a major withdrawal of troops out of Iraq within the next five years we need to have a President in power who will not veto congressional funding and timetable measures. The third is that, in order to secure his base, McCain is RUNNING to the right and abandoning all of his previous Maverick principles. Not to mention that he is now (he used to disagree) in LOCK STEP with two of Bush’s most failed policies (i.e. Iraq and Bush’s economic strategy).


Upcoming Part 2: The Differences Between Liberal And Conservative Ideology (*NOTE* This part will be LITTLE more unbiased I promise).

[szznnn]

YOU'RE WRONG.




Just kidding, I enjoyed reading it. I'll respond soon :]
I appreciate your effort to bring a relevant and intellectual topic to the forums.

[pico]

For somebody that wants to start a political discussion - you might be able to falsely convince one or two people with all of your subjective riddled comments.

If you truly want a a political discussion, im game, but i wont argue with anybody unless they give me an objective viewpoint where logic reigns.

Im not a die-hard conservative nut; ask rogue, shell attest to that, but i feel that attacking McCain because he is is unfair.

McCain has more political experience than Hilary and Obama combined, with thier ten and eight year stints in the senate, respectively.

Ill agree with it would be a great idea to incorporate some socialist ideas of Hilary's, because i feel that before we can go on policing the world, we need to make sure every American has the bare necessities of life.

There are however many ideas of Hilary's that i dont agree with - such as social medical care.

So again, im game for a debate, but make it factual and put in as little emotion as possible.

[Conniption]

Originally Posted by pico1991

For somebody that wants to start a political discussion - you might be able to falsely convince one or two people with all of your subjective riddled comments.

If you truly want a a political discussion, im game, but i wont argue with anybody unless they give me an objective viewpoint where logic reigns.

Im not a die-hard conservative nut; ask rogue, shell attest to that, but i feel that attacking McCain because he is is unfair.

McCain has more political experience than Hilary and Obama combined, with thier ten and eight year stints in the senate, respectively.

Ill agree with it would be a great idea to incorporate some socialist ideas of Hilary's, because i feel that before we can go on policing the world, we need to make sure every American has the bare necessities of life.

There are however many ideas of Hilary's that i dont agree with - such as social medical care.

So again, im game for a debate, but make it factual and put in as little emotion as possible.

Haha well...I don't think I was trying to hide my biases (hence the disclaimer in the beginning). Honestly...I had contemplated whether to put a more objective view (or to at least lay out more of the POV of both sides). But then I would be debating myself wouldn't I? In other words I did it on purpose to spark comments just like yours. One more thing...I don't see why my point of view can't be biased AND factual / non-emotional. In fact you displayed more emotion in that one sentence then in my entire first post.

Lets go down the line...

How were my attacks on McCain unfair? I assume you meant to say attacking McCain because he is old is unfair, which I didn't do, did I? I may end up making fun of his age at some point, sure, but McCain makes fun of his own age all the time (a characteristic of his I rather like). No...I attacked McCain on his policies, the stuff he has been saying lately, and his actions (voting record) and I stand by them.

As far as experience goes, well Bush surrounded himself with the most experienced people in Washington (most dating back to Nixon or before) and where did that get us? No...Bush was not experienced but let's face it...he was a puppet President anyways.

As far as Hillary being this giant socialist I'm not going to defend that much because, frankly, I don't know how exactly she would be (like any candidate) until she is in office. I will say ONE thing though...the exact same stuff has always been said about Bill. Of course, in history's hindsight Bill was actually a pretty conservative President. Fiscally he didn't spend much (WAY, WAY less then Bush) hence the balanced budget. Plus, in a lot of ways, Bill was a VERY free market President (NAFTA being a prime example). Some on the left and the right even say he was technically more conservative then Reagan. I disagree...but he was hardly the giant socialist pundits tried to make him out to be. Would Hillary be the same? Like I said I am not entirly sure but it's somthing to think about.

As far as "policing the world" comment...are you forgetting which group pushed for the "liberation" of Iraq? Isn't that policing the world? Aren't the Democratic candidates trying to STOP this?? Please elaborate on that comment.

Also...what is wrong with social health care? Why can't we have both?? Obviously JUST having a private health system does not work. How can you say in one breath that "we need to make sure every American has the bare necessities of life" and then be against having health care for all Americans (at LEAST all children, which is the primary focus of Hillary's new plan)? Please elaborate on this as well I am interested in what you have to say.

[thizzellejr]

All three candidates are horrible. When our country goes down the shitter, don't blame me. I voted for RON PAUL

[Conniption]

Originally Posted by thizzellejr

All three candidates are horrible. When our country goes down the shitter, don't blame me. I voted for RON PAUL

And I wanted Richardson! Technically the most qualified to lead our country then any other candidate. I also predict that he will be the Vice President nomination for the Dems (if they have any brains, anyways).