Islam...

[Spunkt]

Yes and No.

Islam teachings is to encompass not only the home life but also political life. It teaches how to run the gov't etc.

Now, Christian beliefs do not teach this but also a lot of christians try to make religion and state the same thing. I find keeping religion out of political affairs would make things run smoother.

So, does Islam work with the west? Sure, I know a bunch of Muslims. But at the same time I would like to keep any and all religion out of my politics.

[Juno]

Originally Posted by Spunkt

So, does Islam work with the west? Sure, I know a bunch of Muslims. But at the same time I would like to keep any and all religion out of my politics.

Unless of course you're talking about freedom of religion, amirite?

[mollywags]

I just wanted to say that i have enjoyed reading this thread and im glad there are intelligent conversations going on here, because before this i only saw stuff about "fake ravers" or some nonsense. I just wish i had something more to add, but i hate to admit i know very little specifically about Islam. But i think that Islam, any religion for that matter, is perfectly compatible with American society as long as you take the extremists (or fundamentalists) out of BOTH.

[liquidoleg]

The old testament and new testament are pretty violent and tumultious if you ask me.

Religion will never be out of politics no matter which state/civilization you look at. Even our current American govt is filled with religion.

Look at George Bush...You know how many people voted for him based on religion? I dont have exact statistics but I would assure you that it is quite a significant number .

Buddism is all about the middle way and the eightfold path. Also the four noble truths are quite significant in his teachings. Buddah's life is pretty interesting, used to be a very rich prince till he went outside of his castle and saw the "real" world. Rumor has it that he gave up all his wealth and decided to live along the commoners and spread his teachings.

THe Eightfold Path and Middleway(Four Noble Truths) are guides as to how you should live your life and how you should act in certain situations.

Personally, I'll take the Socratic approach and say that you should find out for your own on what you should be doing and learning.

"All you know is that you know nothing"

Originally Posted by Juno

Unless of course you're talking about freedom of religion, amirite?

Freedom of religion is limited actually. FOr instance, you cant have some satanic religion where the whole purpose is to kill people. As long as you don't infringe on other peoples rights and liberties you can have freedom of religion---once you cross that line its not cool. I would consider extremist part of the line crossing

[foxysteve]

Christianity is not compatable with western civ.

[liquidoleg]

Originally Posted by foxysteve

Christianity is not compatable with western civ.

again, "western civ" is relative and by some can be considered the whole world now. The Hellenistic culture of the Greeks spread around the whole world in the 1st - 3rd centuries BC/AD

[Raverkid00]

Originally Posted by liquidoleg

again, "western civ" is relative and by some can be considered the whole world now. The Hellenistic culture of the Greeks spread around the whole world in the 1st - 3rd centuries BC/AD

Sorry, but I think you need to study a bit more about history.

Western Civilization is the study of the development of cultures west of a line from the Ural mountains down through the west coast of the Caspian Sea, then along the west bank of the Indus River to the Persian Gulf. It also includes the North African coast and the Nile River valley just north of Ethiopia.

It encompasses the civilizations developing along the Tigris-Euphrates and the Nile river systems, as well as Helenic, Roman, and Phoenecian expansions.

Eastern Civilization starts roughly from east of the Urals down to the Indus river and contains Indian, Chinese, Mongol, Japanese, and Indochinese civilizations.

Islam is already a part of THAT "Western Civilization."

What Juno is asking about, I think, is the European west, which is primarily based on Judeo-Christian religious ideology. In that case, no I don't think Islam, or any other non-Judeo-Christian belief systems "fit."

When the Founding Fathers were considering religious freedom, they really didn't have all the non-Christian systems in mind. They considered the U.S. a nation founded on a basic shared belief in a Christian God, and were thinking of the various Christian sects (with some allowances for native pagans who had not been converted) when they put forward the ideal of religious freedom.

I am sure they would be confounded by the conflicts about what constitutes religious freedom today.

In my opinion, Islam does not fit because regardless of how peaceful the teachings appear they still claim to be the FINAL word of God, and the ultimate religion everyone should be part of. It also advocates a merger of government and society into a single religious expression of God's will on earth. This is in direct conflict with the development of "western" thought as percieved by european-american minds. As we all know, direct conflict of thought usually leads to direct conflict in action...or CONFLICT period.

[liquidoleg]

Unfortunately I can't quote my book because I don't have it with me at work.

Although you have set the boundary quite nice, its really not that definite. As I said in the previous post, the Greeks considered themselves the forefront of western civilization as they saw civilization extends to them and anything west of them was barbaric or unknown. I do not believe setting boundary lines to "this is west and that is east" is absolutely correct.

Also, what does it mean to say Eastern Civilization? Because again this is relative to which part of the world you are speaking to. Saying that everything West of Caspian sea is Western Civilization and everything East is Eastern is not correct.

The final word of God is emphasized quite clearly in the Old Testament. I fail to see how Islam is definitively different?

I wont say I am an expert when it comes to history, my major is mechanical engineering and mathematics...But stuff like this interests me

[Raverkid00]

Originally Posted by liquidoleg

Unfortunately I can't quote my book because I don't have it with me at work.

Although you have set the boundary quite nice, its really not that definite. As I said in the previous post, the Greeks considered themselves the forefront of western civilization as they saw civilization extends to them and anything west of them was barbaric or unknown. I do not believe setting boundary lines to "this is west and that is east" is absolutely correct.

Also, what does it mean to say Eastern Civilization? Because again this is relative to which part of the world you are speaking to. Saying that everything West of Caspian sea is Western Civilization and everything East is Eastern is not correct.

The final word of God is emphasized quite clearly in the Old Testament. I fail to see how Islam is definitively different?

I wont say I am an expert when it comes to history, my major is mechanical engineering and mathematics...But stuff like this interests me

Well, I have taught Western Civilization at both college and High School for several years. (Master's degree in History)

The "boundary lines" are based on many different factors, including cultural, religious, racial, economic and geographic elements.

I guess I don't follow you clearly when you say "it is relative to what part of the world you are speaking to," please elaborate?

"The final word of God is emphasized quite clearly in the Old Testament. I fail to see how Islam is definitively different?" You are confusing different with conflicting. Yes, Judaism and Chrisitianity are both systems which consider their ideology to be the "final word." All religions pretty much share that idea, which is what makes them different religions.

However, they all come into conflict because of such differences. When someone asks how Islam will fit into Western Civilization, they aren't talking about the study of the west...they are referring to the idea of the European-American WEST (as opposed to the rest of the world). That particular "West," as I tried to exemplify in my Founding Fathers commentary, contains societies based upon the Judeo-Christian religious ideology.

Since that "West" has already determined which "final" word of God is to be followed, of course anyone who advocates a different view is bound to come into conflict when trying to convince, or coerce that "West" into accepting and eventually converting to the different word of God. Does that clear things up?

[liquidoleg]

Originally Posted by Raverkid00

Well, I have taught Western Civilization at both college and High School for several years. (Master's degree in History)

The "boundary lines" are based on many different factors, including cultural, religious, racial, economic and geographic elements.

I guess I don't follow you clearly when you say "it is relative to what part of the world you are speaking to," please elaborate?

"The final word of God is emphasized quite clearly in the Old Testament. I fail to see how Islam is definitively different?" You are confusing different with conflicting. Yes, Judaism and Chrisitianity are both systems which consider their ideology to be the "final word." All religions pretty much share that idea, which is what makes them different religions.

However, they all come into conflict because of such differences. When someone asks how Islam will fit into Western Civilization, they aren't talking about the study of the west...they are referring to the idea of the European-American WEST (as opposed to the rest of the world). That particular "West," as I tried to exemplify in my Founding Fathers commentary, contains societies based upon the Judeo-Christian religious ideology.

Since that "West" has already determined which "final" word of God is to be followed, of course anyone who advocates a different view is bound to come into conflict when trying to convince, or coerce that "West" into accepting and eventually converting to the different word of God. Does that clear things up?

Thank you, obviously you know more about the history than I do. Which I will happily agree to .

Well a question for you. What is the origin of the term "Eastern Civilization"?

Also, any religion is going to conflict with another because the whole essence of that one specific religion is that it is the final word in how things should be done and how you are to go about your faith. No two religions are present that are not going to conflict with one another.

I didn't assume initially that the original poster meant European/American West, but the West as a whole.

I forget which philosopher said this but basically(aside from my butchering of his actual writing) he said that with the telephone and telegraph the whole world has become flat again and we are all under one body where communication is so instantaneous and expansive.

I just think its quite hubris to assume that Islam does not "work" with the American/European West. But that's just me.

[foxysteve]

Originally Posted by Raverkid00

When the Founding Fathers were considering religious freedom, they really didn't have all the non-Christian systems in mind. They considered the U.S. a nation founded on a basic shared belief in a Christian God, and were thinking of the various Christian sects (with some allowances for native pagans who had not been converted) when they put forward the ideal of religious freedom.

I am sure they would be confounded by the conflicts about what constitutes religious freedom today.

In my opinion, Islam does not fit because regardless of how peaceful the teachings appear they still claim to be the FINAL word of God, and the ultimate religion everyone should be part of. It also advocates a merger of government and society into a single religious expression of God's will on earth. This is in direct conflict with the development of "western" thought as percieved by european-american minds. As we all know, direct conflict of thought usually leads to direct conflict in action...or CONFLICT period.

Just about every religion caims to be the "final" or "correct" word of god.

And some of the founding fathers were hadly Christian. Jefferson was prettymust a deist and Franklen was practicaly a modern Satainist, infact, he was part of a groups that greatly influenced the guy who wrote the book of Satainism.

[Raverkid00]

Originally Posted by liquidoleg

...Well a question for you. What is the origin of the term "Eastern Civilization"?

I didn't teach Eastern Civ., although I had some peers at college who did. Essentially, the division is based on the connection between the cultural elements and their areas of expansion. The Tigris-Euphrates-Nile river cultures had extensive interrelations and direct effects on the development of civilization in the "West."

The Indus-Ganges-Yellow-Mekong river systems were the cradle of eastern civilizations and had varying impacts on eastern cultural development. Essentially a line was drawn through the central wastelands whose geography served to keep the two areas seperate for a significant part of history.

Originally Posted by liquidoleg

I didn't assume initially that the original poster meant European/American West, but the West as a whole.

I still don't understand what you mean by the west as a whole. From any point on the planet someplace will be west of you or east of you. I could stand on an atoll in the pacific and China would be west of me. In terms of present geopolitics though, the "West" refers to Western Europe and the United States.

Originally Posted by liquidoleg

I just think its quite hubris to assume that Islam does not "work" with the American/European West. But that's just me.

Hubris is overbearing pride...that has nothing to do with an assessment of the present conflict between Islam and Western Philosophy based on the Judeo-Christian ethic. Western states have determined that religion is an individual choice and not a state function. This came after clear, and rejected experience with a dominant Christian church.

Islam, conversely, says that all aspects of human endeavor are subject to God's direct will, hence government should be exercised by representatives of God. I, for one, would rather die than subject myself to religious control. Of course I kinda believe like George Patton...help the OTHER guy die for his beliefs. LOL

Originally Posted by foxysteve

Just about every religion caims to be the "final" or "correct" word of god.

Exactly. As things stand this country is still primarily a Christian nation... and if you have any doubt just turn on the news or check your history and see how great an impact the extreme Christian Right has had on our moral and legal choices. They are only the most vociferous and active, but couldnt get anything done if most middle-of-the-road Christians didn't give them support in the voting booths.

Originally Posted by foxysteve

And some of the founding fathers were hadly Christian. Jefferson was prettymust a deist and Franklen was practicaly a modern Satainist, infact, he was part of a groups that greatly influenced the guy who wrote the book of Satainism.

Jefferson still had a western idea of God, based upon a greek philosphy, tinged with Judeo-Christian enlightenment theory. Franklin...was mostly a hedonist, but had some touches of deism, and agnosticism. Neither man was athiest or believed in something other than a western ideal of God though. Bottom line, they were rationalist in regarding individual reason as a sound basis for a belief in God, and would neither admire Islamic "mythology" or support the establishment of an Islamic Theocracy.